Griff on trading less, 17 months of backtesting and keeping a job

0:00I was living at home when I made $100,000 in a month. I managed to succeed as soon as I started in 2021, which was fortunate, but also quite dangerous. I find most traders believe that the goal is to trade more. They're lowering their time frame. They're looking for more setups and they want to spend more time in the market. Today's guest actually built his edge by doing the exact opposite. Started off, I took so many trades. What I realized was that I could have taken 20% of those trades and made 80% of my profit.

0:27Today's guest is Griff. And before placing his first live trade, he spent 17 months back testing. That patience paid off because it eventually took him to number one on the FTMO leaderboard with an 80% profit in one month. Just working on that one strategy. I got to a position where I was really, really pleased with the state it was at and I was like, I'm going to start live trading this now.

0:51And my first month live trading that strategy, I made 17% profit. Now, here's the part that most traders are not going to expect from this story. A little while after this achievement, he actually stepped away from full-time trading. He realized very quickly that the financial pressure of relying on only trading for an income was actually hurting his performance in the long run. Getting a full-time job, I've kind of got this baseline where I'm able to pay the bills, I'm able to buy a house, get a mortgage, and then everything from trading is basically just a bonus.

1:14In today's episode, you're going to find out exactly why trading less and not more might actually be the key to real consistency. Being self-aware, especially as a swing trader, especially as somebody that takes so few trades, super important. And the way that I kind of train that muscle is Let's get into it. If you don't mind, I'm going to jump straight into conversation.

1:38Let's do it. I want to delve into the thing that I think intrigued me most about your story. I I always say and I've said this I think on every episode that I've shot, one of the things that I am most fortunate and grateful for is that I get to connect with a lot of traders on a weekly and a monthly basis. Yeah. Most of them have the aspiration to at some point in time go full-time. Yeah. They want to get rid of the job.

2:03I did as well. They they want to put the finger up to their boss and be like this is it. I'm you know I I have complete independence financially in terms of my time, location, whatever it is. You did things a little bit differently. I did. you you stepped away from full-time trading after hitting that big milestone of the big payout. Mhm. Why? Like what happened? What were you thinking around that time that made you want to take the unconventional path compared to most people?

2:25Yeah. So, a couple of things. The year before that, I'd been funded for an entire year and I'd not received a single payout. And although I was quite fortunate in January to have made a six figure profit on a six-figure account, um I felt that I did not want to go through that psychological burden of a year with no payouts again. I'd learned in that year that the nature of my trading strategy is fairly low win rate and payouts and trades come quite with a random they come with a random distribution.

3:04Um, so I felt that I could actually improve my trading performance if I could relieve myself of some of the pressure of trading full-time. Now, I felt I could handle that pressure quite well. Uh, but I still decided to accept this very good job offer when I had it. It's fully remote, so I'm able to trade exactly the same. And the nature of my trading strategy, I have very, very few trades. So, I could trade exactly the same. and it would relieve me of any psychological stress from trading with infrequent payouts.

3:42Maybe a yearly payout is tends to be what I get. And at the same time, I could get a mortgage now. I there's all these all these uh weights that are just pulled away from my trading. Um yeah, so I basically just got a second income source and I get to trade the exact same way. Yeah, this it's fascinating and I I always say this is my most unpopular opinion, but I think the quickest way to fix most psychological problems is to get a job or to have a second source of income, whatever that a job, a business, a side hustle.

4:13Honestly, sorry to interrupt, the psychology burdens weren't that heavy on me. It was the financial stress primarily. I didn't want to go another year where I only had one or two payouts due to the nature of my strategy, which is primarily swing trading focused on personal trading accounts. So, like mentally, I could handle the stress, but I knew my wife and my baby probably could not. So, getting a full-time job, I've kind of got this baseline where I'm able to pay the bills, I'm able to buy a house, get a mortgage, shop at Waitro, you know, I eat good eat good food.

4:40Um and then everything from trading is basically just a bonus. Um yeah, that was my mentality. Can So can I ask when did this

4:58shift happen? When did you go back into working? Like what year was this quite It was So I hit the FTMO leaderboards January 2023. Okay. And then I had this job offer at a trading software company June 2023. So that's five six months later. Interesting. And I was like, yeah, I couldn't see any downsides to be honest. the trading element of my life didn't change. Um I'd spent a year which trading just the 1 hour time frame taking maybe two trades per month.

5:24Okay. So there was really nothing for me to do in the days and like you said at the beginning I back tested a hell of a lot. So there was only there's only so much back testing a man can do you know. So going I I was like I didn't really see a path forward unless I started introducing a second strategy or just ch changing what I'd decided already works.

5:45Um, so yeah, for me it made a lot of sense and I think for a lot of traders watching at home, striving to achieve full-time trading will be most traders downfall because I feel like everybody that I know has gone that has gone full-time, they have really suffered after doing so. Either they stop going full-time or they just stop trading completely because it just it doesn't work. you you need to be ve very few people can make it work over the long a long period of time.

6:22Um and I think the optimal way to transition to full-time trading is very slowly. If you have a job, reduce your hours and increase your trading hours and otherwise don't just dive into full-time trading. I think I think trading should be a parttime job. I think trading should be a side income. And for most people, they're not making $4.5 million in payouts. Most people, they make an extra 30 grand a year, which is basically what trading is for me if you average my payouts out over from prop firms over the last four years.

6:49Very interesting. Yeah, I I resonate with this message a lot. And I So, in 2018, I attempted to quit my job to start full-time trading. And it it wasn't planned. I had a falling out with work and I decided, screw you guys. I'm going to attempt the full-time trading route and business and entrepreneurship. Yeah. And I wasn't already profitable at that point. I was kind of breaking even. It was the worst thing I ever did because any progress I made up until that point went down the toilet the the moment I had my first month of draw down.

7:30Yeah. It was that first moment where I realized it's come the end of the month, I've had to pay all of my normal living expenses and nothing came back in. And if anything, my account balance or my my trading account only went down as well. Yeah. That was what sent me on a spiral psychologically and it was where I realized the importance of a secondary income. Yeah. I I think a lot of you know there's the saying that like diamonds are made under pressure that does not apply to trading.

7:53Yeah. And like even if you can handle the pressure like I said I think it's only a disadvantage. It's just another thing that you have to deal with while trading you're already dealing with 15 mental barriers all these hurdles that you have to navigate. You don't want to add in god I've got to pay rent at the end of the month as well.

8:12How am I going to make that work? I've got to put food on the table. It doesn't make sense. I I think there are a lot of people that will be watching this from a different demographic in terms of age. I think specifically I think if you're younger that appeal of full-time trading sounds more attractive, but I think potentially because you have a lot less overheads and liability. Yeah, I was in a similar position. I was living at home when I made $100,000 in a month.

8:39I was living my my rent was £250 because I was just paying my mother-in-law. So, there was I I really had no reason to take a job, but I I I was really looking ahead. um for the for years ahead. Yeah. I didn't want to go another year without receiving a payout. I couldn't I just couldn't risk it. I wanted to move my life forward with high probability trading mindset with a high probability of being able to afford a house next year.

9:10And uh yeah, I just wanted to kind of get that that buffer, you know, credit to you. Well, you know, one thing I think we've kind of brushed over in just the early part of this conversation is the reason I asked when this all occurred for you. Yeah. Was I wanted to understand where in the timeline of both prop firms and retail trading that we kind of are. And and to give you some context of this, right, I I started trading in 2012 and the the social dynamic of what trading is shown as online was very different back then than it is today.

9:40Today, it's very glamorous. It's the social media influencer lifestyle. I'm going to trade from a breach and, you know, press two buttons and make, you know, your yearly salary and that's that's my life. Yeah. You don't hear about the people that aren't doing that. 100%. 100%. Right. Social media. The for me 2023 is very much still in the era of, you know, social uh trading has been glamorized on social media. And I think the thing that initially fascinates me most about both your mindset and your journey is how did you not fall into that trap of wanting to go either go down the full full-time trading route and knowing and having enough awareness to know that it probably wasn't the best for you long term?

10:16But secondly, how do you not start straying away from your strategy which is proven and works

10:27but thinking that if I do something differently, I can make a more consistent income outside of this? Yeah, I think the reason I didn't kind of fall down that path is I guess I just I had I had this realization I had I had a a dose of reality um because when I when I hit that payout because it made me realize that there is some degree of luck involved. those there those elements outside of my control and at least with the nature of my strategy as I mentioned I couldn't depend on that to be producing monthly salary for me um and like you'd said I've spent a lot of time working on this strategy I got it working it worked very well on my personal trading accounts but yeah I just I couldn't go a year being paid at the beginning of the year.

11:18Um, if I if I go back give you a better answer. Um, I started off my kind of entrepreneurial journey with drop shipping and e-commerce and I had a lot of success with that early on. I made like $20,000 in one month at one point. And this is when I'm like 17. Um, and I I couldn't replicate that early success that I'd rece that I'd got in my drop shipping career. And so coming into trading, h I I don't why why why was I so realistic, Sanch?

11:56But you know, so I'm going to interrupt you for just a second here. It's not something that I often like to do, but I I actually think even with your your timeline of how you thought about trading, the thing that again goes back and it fascinates me is 17 months of back testing before placing a live trade. And again, at least from my perspective, that in today's day and age is unheard of.

12:20I see people going the other way. They're going full porting like their whole account before they do a single bit of back testing. Where did that mentality come from? Like is that something that you learned or picked up? I think I've always been somebody that likes to be extra prepared to my own detriment sometimes because in the past it

12:39would lead to me not starting. And I learned that you you've got to just take action. Like start before you're ready is a saying that I kind of adopted a little bit late in life. Um I'm I'm a perfectionist. I spend way too much time educating myself and kind of polishing things rather than actually acting on them. Um and I'd seen like you said a lot of people they just jump in to trading, lose an account.

13:10I didn't want to be that person. So, I I experimented with with a lot of different things. I know it sounds like I spent 17 months back testing one strategy. Yeah. But I did spend maybe my first six months kind of finding a strategy that resonated with me and then I spent 12 months just working on that one strategy. Um and yeah, I got to a position where I was really really pleased with the state it was at and I was like, "Right, I'm going to start live trading this now."

13:33And my first month live trading that strategy, I made 17% profit. Um, which is a great month even for me these days. Um, so yeah, I think it's better to be prepared than to just dive in head first blindly and use every everything you've got. I really wanted to approach my trading in a very meth methodical way. Um, yeah, trading education is completely broken. For years, the industry has been purged and poisoned by bad actors, fake results, and strategies hidden behind pay walls.

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15:36Whether you trade forex, futures, stock, options, or crypto, Chart Academy has something for you. Join the weight list now and be part of a movement that is going to change trading education forever. You know, so when we talk about this idea of back testing and and finding something that works for you and again I'm going to give some perspective on this from my experience which was at the start of my journey I lost money for many many years and the biggest reason for that was actually nothing to do with my strategy.

16:12I came across and jumped through many strategies which made money for a short period of time. Yeah. But the moment I hit a period of draw down or a string of losses, I presume the strategy was broken. And I think fundamentally what I didn't understand back then, which I have more clarity and aware of awareness of now, is the issue was never the strategy. It was the fact that I didn't accept that the markets would always be uncertain.

16:36Yeah. I was always looking for for something to to kind of fill that gap of of knowledge or a pattern or something that would help change that so that I could just understand the markets and everything would be sunshine and rainbows. Yeah, it's often the trader 100% rather than the strategy. 100%. Yeah, but you I don't know if that's something that you went through and we haven't discussed yet or that never really occurred for you because for you staying spending that time building that foundation of finding something that works for you and then testing that one thing even for 12 months to provide that foundation to build from again is something that I see a lot of traders lacking in today's day and age.

17:09How did you get to that point? Yeah. Well, I had I'd set myself

17:20this goal of I wanted to be a funded trader and I didn't want to start with a 5k challenge or a 10k challenge. I wanted to go all in with a 100k challenge and um yeah, with that goal in mind, I kind of wanted to hit bullseye on my first throw. Um and I hit bullseye on my second throw. So, I got I passed the 100k challenge on my second try. But those are the days where you had to pass in 30 days.

17:47And with my swing trading strategy, that was there was a lot of chance involved. You know, the two trades that formed that month, I needed to make sure that they were winning trades. Um, so yeah, I think you can definitely overprepare. Um, but you can I think most people do underprepare and I I definitely overprepared a little bit, but I'm grateful for that period. Um, I would do it a little bit differently today.

18:10I think I probably could have done it in way less time. I probably worked on things that were unnecessary, but I'm still trading exactly the same way today. Um, yeah, like I I would have really appreciated back then if I were to have been trading a demo account or just been trading in the live markets a little bit. Um, I'd been reading, you know, Trading in the Zone, all these trading psychology books.

18:32So, I felt like I had that down, but I hadn't started live trading yet. Um, and I feel that if I were live trading a little bit, I would have been getting more more of that psychology experience, which I wasn't from just back testing. Yeah. My I think it's uh I'm probably going to butcher this. I'm a big fan of quotes. I think Mike Tyson has this amazing quote and he says something like, "Everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face."

18:59Yeah. Right. And I I always found that as a very true reflection of of trading in that you can do all the theory work, but until you actually go in and have some money on the line and get stopped out in record time, Yes. nothing will prepare you for that moment until you have some experience. Yeah. Right. And I I find that a fascinating thing that most traders don't really think about. Um it's very easy to think, oh, you know, I've done all this back testing now.

19:20My live trading is going to be absolutely perfect. Yeah, of course. What was that transition like for you? because you obviously spent a lot of time building an amazing foundation. The transition to going live. Did you find because of the foundation it was somewhat smooth or did you have hurdles? It was perfect. Like I I was quite fortunate. I think I don't I I think looking back my psychology and my even my trading strategy then it's it's changed somewhat now.

19:48I it's improved a lot. Um but I managed to succeed as soon as I started in 2021. Um which was fortunate but also quite dangerous because it meant that when I wasn't succeeding later on or when I hit periods of draw down it was difficult. Um but I think that difficulty is what's made me such a strong trader today. Um, whenever I kind of faced a hardship, um, a lot of people I think they'd opt to avoid it, avoiding the the emotions.

20:25Um, but I've always been somebody that just confronts it head on and, uh, that's meant that I was able to build a really strong like mental fortitude. Um, yeah, I I think you touched on something quite important there, which is what people do in the face of hardship. And I I actually think this is going to be a really interesting question for you to answer because and I mentioned this before we actually jumped on camera, which is something that I connect with you on is we trade a somewhat higher time frame to at least most people that I speak with.

20:53Now I think I I'm always an advocate of the idea that there is no one perfect trading strategy. I always like the idea that you have to choose your pain. Whether you scalp, whether you're an intraday, whether you're a swing position trader, whatever it is, there's a certain degree of pain that is associated with every approach. You just have to decide which one you could be most consistent with. Yes. The problem that I find most people have with a relatively longerterm approach, a swing trading strategy you could say, is I think that there is a lot less action and there's a lot more patience and observation that's involved.

21:30Yeah. Now, when you go through those periods of hardship where you take a loss or something doesn't work, you don't immediately jump back in. And sometimes there's not going to be another setup for an hour, a day, a week, maybe even a month. Yeah. And you've mentioned that at the start of when we had this discussion today.

21:47You mentioned like your your selectivity when it comes to picking trades. Sometimes you're only doing maybe two or three trades a month. I think you mentioned that's right. Yeah. It didn't necessarily start that way. So in 2021 when I first started, I think I literally took like 30 trades. So not so much swing trading sand. Um, but as time progressed, I saw the inefficiency in that and I've optimized my strategy now to where I take like two trades per month on average, but there is sometimes I don't have a trade for one or two months like in a row.

22:18M um and yeah, I agree with what you said about how important it is to be patient and like the kind of lessons that a swing trader can learn that an intraday trader can't. So while they may suffer being patient, I may suffer I don't know pulling the trigger. I don't know what the benefit is is of trading the one minute or five minute to be honest.

22:46I don't think it teaches very good trading habits because the people that trade that time frame or probably start off trading that time frame, they're people that want to make money fast. And that's never been my approach. I've always taken an approach of if I'm rich at some point in my 30s or 40s, that's good enough for me. I don't need to be rich right right now. And I think a lot of people, they're like, if I'm not making money right now, then I'm failing.

23:12And that leads to a lot of psychological burden. Um, taking unnecessary losses and like you said, taking a loss and then jumping back in to take another one because you need to re remedy that as fast as you can. Um, so yeah, if you're a swing trader, you know, you take a loss and it lingers for like weeks sometimes and god, it's awful and you know, you really come to terms with

23:38that. And I can just eat the most terrible draw downs now. I can just handle being tagged out by a pip when I've not taken a trade for like two months and then it goes to 10%. And I'm like, that would have passed, you know, 300k in funding and I got tagged out by a pip. But if you're a swing trader, you can I think I've got huge capacity to handle those kind of losses now, which somebody trading intraday, they would not be able to handle it at all.

24:03What What do you tell yourself in that moment? Because I mean you've already described that that was not always the case for you, right? You at some point in time you had that maybe impulsivity to want to be back in the market when I started definitely continually. Um how how do you deal with that now? Because I always find that is a big problem for not just funded traders but aspiring traders at whatever level. It's it's learning to separate between the thoughts and the emotions and actually taking action because the losses always hurt.

24:37The draw down will always eat you up. Yeah, but how do you separate between a stage where you can experience those things but not actually on them for a period of time? Um, so how I stopped myself from being so impulsive? Um yeah, it's really difficult to be a patient trader. And yeah, like I said, I started off, I took so many trades and uh what I realized was that I could have taken 20% of those trades and made 80% of my profit.

25:04And I really embedded that in my mind and I took this approach for my future data gathering and back testing and like refining my data set where I really wanted to take make as much profit in as few trades as possible. And it's like in programming I think they say like the the the most perfect like the perfect thing for a programmer is if you can put all of your program into like one line of code. And obviously that isn't possible in mo most cases.

25:39Um but I kind of had that methodology with my trading where I wanted to extract as much profit as possible with as little energy and actual trading as possible which you saw when I made loads in one month. Um and now I take very very few trades. I I I'm I can I think I can barely call myself a trader. I take so few trades but I still average 40% a year. Um which is great with with with like 20 trades per year on average.

26:03Um, so when it comes to being patient, not being impulsive, which was the question you asked me. I go on tangents. Sorry. No, you're good. You're good. When it comes to being impulsive, uh, not being impulsive, being as patient as possible, that methodology was really what kind of inspired me and motivated me to take as few trades as possible and be patient. And if ever I never really got the urge to jump into a setup because I had such a rigid plan that I couldn't even if I wanted to because there is no setup for me to impulsively jump into.

26:44I'd have to wait two weeks for the next flag or continuation to appear and I can impulsively jump into that. Um but most of the time I'm like ah it's not it's not a 10 out of 10 trade. It's or it's like it's like a nine out of 10 trade. It doesn't fit my plan. it's not one of the trades that's going to follow this methodology of making as much as possible with as little as possible.

27:00Um, so yeah, with with with all that in mind, um, I I I guess my trade plan is what stopped me from being so impulsive. But interestingly, I don't have a trade plan anymore. Completely discretionary these days. Um, yeah, I I just ask myself, is this trade beautiful? And if it is, I execute it. It's completely in my mind now, my trade plan. I worry like if I get into a car crash, I hope I still have my trade plan. You know, that part of my brain's intact because otherwise I'm just screwed.

27:34I'd have to uh my my wife would probably have to try and describe my trade plan to me. That's so fascinating. Um, one thing that I do want to ask you, and this has been always a question that I had to figure out for myself and I see in a lot of traders now, and I I always call this the the silent performance killer that most people don't plan for, but a lot of traders experience, and that is boredom, right?

28:07Yeah. So, I I find, and again, this is probably going to be more applicable for maybe swing traders, but actually boredom is is relative, right? someone even that trades a one minute chart, a five minute time period could feel boring and introduce a certain level of impulsivity. So I guess my question for you is when you went through that phase of actually your trade frequency was going down as you were getting more selective in what you were doing, how do you deal with the inevitable boredom that comes up?

28:33And I'm guessing maybe the job is is one of those things that fills that gap, but is there anything specific that else that you're doing? Yeah. Well, I'd become a bit I'd come selective by the time I'd hit the leaderboards. Um, so before I'd taken the job. Um, I'd say I've gotten a little more selective since then. But yeah, if I really want to trade, I just do some back testing.

28:54I just go to a random date, do some data gathering, do some refining. Um, I've refined my strategy so much. It's unbelievable. I think I started off with I wouldn't be able to give you accurate numbers but I had hundreds and hundreds of trades um making you know 150% profit say and then I was able to dial that back to like 30 trades 50 trades with 120% profit so eliminating loads and loads of unnecessary trades average trades. Um, and yeah, so now if I'm bored and I want to take a trade, you know, you can just do it on a demo account or like I would do, I'd just obsess over my data and just go play around in there and tinker.

29:32That's what I would do when I really had the urge to do something like trading related. Okay, let's take a quick break here and I want to tell you about a prop firm that's actually trusted and

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30:57I personally think regardless of whether you trade futures or crypto, Tradeify is the move to make. And make sure you use the code PFT at checkout to make sure that you get the best deal available. Links in the description below. Did did you ever find that there's I again something that I see in a lot of people is there is this kind of natural instinct that makes us believe more action leads to better results.

31:20Yeah, that's a funny and so you know when we experience the boredom it makes us feel like well you know if we want to make more money we just have to start taking more trades and then it often takes us around the opposite path. Was that something that you ever experienced? Yeah, I often thought like if I could just get into more trades then surely that's more opportunity to win. Um but it's counterintuitive in trading. Like everything is the opposite of what you'd expect.

31:45And I found that somebody like I I I was looking at um some of my fellow traders who may be trading different strategies and stuff and they'd be taking a trade every day and making you know couple percentage each each month. Um, and then I would be taking like one trade a month and making a couple percentage each month. So, it really things things just balance out in trading. I don't I don't know what it is.

32:08Um, if you take 20 trades, make 2% per month, well, I'd rather be taking one trade making 2% per month. Um, yeah, trading is funny. Everything's just the opposite of what you'd expect, but I've not found any benefit in taking more trades. Um, yeah. I I find that's why probably most people struggle with trading because it's so opposite. It's really counterintuitive to our nature as humans. 100%. What What is it about you or what did you do that made you so good at doing something that's so counterintuitive?

32:39Um, I I really I think I was really able to kind of program this mindset in myself from reading all the trading psychology books, just practicing it when I was coming out of drop shipping and not being able to replicate the early success that I said I'd had. Um, I really needed something that resonated with me more. And uh yeah, I I felt like I was already a successful entrepreneur at that point. Um but e-commerce did not fit my personality.

33:18I learned a lot there. Um so I went on the internet and I was like, right, I'm a very analytical, technical person. Um some people would call me almost like robotic. I'm I'm very much kind of in control of my emotions. I don't really get very upset about things. Um I like numbers. So yeah, trading really stuck out to me and I was able to go into trading with these kind of natural traits that I've acquired over the last two decades and I was able to kind of make them flourish by reading these books, working on the art of trading and yeah, really just mold myself into this person over those 17 months so that when I started trading I was just like as good as I could be, you know, I like a trading monster.

33:55Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Fair. You you mentioned something at the start of our discussion today where you said that you know if you would do your journey over again you wouldn't necessarily do it in the same way when we talked about like the back testing and things like this. If you were to give advice to a trader that was starting out today in today's era with your experience that you have what would you advise them to maybe either do the same as you did or what would you get them to do differently as opposed to your journey?

34:27That's a good question. Um, I have kind I've worked on like this 90day plan. Okay. And I I've taught a

34:40couple of my friends how to trade and things. Um, and I've kind of on the assumption that they want to trade the same way as me. If you don't know what strategy you want to trade, definitely spend some time figuring out what strategies you like first because you really don't want to commit into working on a strategy and then hate it afterwards. Um, so definitely kind of dip your toes in with a couple strategies, back test it, get a feel for it, maybe do that with three or four strategies, see what you like, and then from there this 90-day plan, okay, begins.

35:00So imagine that. Yeah. Um, I'd say spend the first couple of weeks doing one run of back testing. Choose a currency pair, back test it for a month, just going as getting as much data as you can, and then I'd say spend a couple weeks going through that back testing data. Remove any losses that you are able to refine out and really really look at the wins and see what losses you can remove.

35:33Try and find the pair the characteristics of those winning trades. Optimize that data as much as you can and build like a preliminary trade plan. And then I would go and back test again for the next 30 days um with this preliminary trade plan. See how your data set improves and then do the same process. See what refining and optimizing you can do again. And then I would say you're in a pretty solid position.

36:01You've done two sets of back testing runs. You've gone from kind of like a basic trade plan to a more optimized trade plan. Um and then I would say just do some uh demo trading which is something that I did not do. Um I just went straight from that kind of second stage into live trading. I would definitely do some demo trading, some paper trading with that optimized trade plan. Um see how it performs in the live market.

36:25Uh during this whole process, you should definitely be reading psychology books as well and uh then when you're in that third stage demo trading, you'll be able to kind of see what's going wrong because being self-aware very important. Um, and then I'd say once you've done that, 30 days of the first run, 30 days of the second run, 30 days demo trading, reading psychology books throughout, then you can start live trading pretty comfortably at least for that one currency pair.

36:46Um, so yeah, maybe 90 days per currency pair. And so for for the 90 days that we're we're kind of talking about here, yeah, is there a specific sample size of data like number of trades or periods of time that you should have tested that would make for a a good baseline? Well, I would say either for me on the 1 hour, I would aim for three to five years of back testing data. I think for most people probably 50 to 100 trades is as good as you could do as the minimum.

37:22Um but yeah, for me it was 3 to 5 years was what I would do. I would do the most recent 3 to 5 years and I'd skip the crazy years. So I would not back test 2020 because those are abnormal market conditions and it's not a good reflection of what the future market conditions are going to look like because it's like oneoff.

37:41Um yeah, that's what I would say. Yeah, I I love the fact that we have actually spent a good portion of this conversation talking about the importance of not just I'm not going to say just back testing but actually just having data because for me that was a big break point for me like where I discovered that actually sometimes the issue is nothing that I'm doing it's just conditions are not really aligned with my edge and that was never really a conclusion that I could always draw like I I closed February in draw down and the thing that I was actually most pissed about was I made a mistake in one of my trades.

38:13It cost me an extra 1 R, but I remember when I wrote out my summary for the month. I wrote this out and I kind of smiled to myself because I know me from 5, seven, 10 years ago would never be able to say this, which is last month I should have lost money. If I traded my strategy as it is shown, yeah, I should have lost money.

38:36And that's something that not a lot of traders are able to actually understand. And you it's hard to get that perspective without having data. process over outcome. No matter what, you know, even if you should be losing, you know, that is not the outcome that you should be getting. You you didn't follow the process correctly. Um yeah, I I I'm the same as you in that sense. Uh I have a monthly performance review and the the biggest issue that I encounter is missing trades because they're so few and sometimes they form while I'm asleep.

39:10uh particularly on the Asian pairs like AU and AJ which annoyingly are my best pairs. So sometimes I'd have to wake up in the night, I'd set alarms. Uh yeah, I think a lot of people they set monthly profit targets. Yeah, that's such a bad idea. It's it's out of your control. So you're just going to disappoint yourself. You can't decide whether you make 2% profit or not. Um so yeah, you really the only thing you're in control of is yourself.

39:34And so you should just execute your plan as well as as well as possible. And like you said, it's funny. You should have lost. Um, and if you followed your plan plan correctly, you should have lost. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm with you on that. You 100% follow your process relentlessly. Yeah. I I think what you mentioned there, it kind of goes full circle to exactly where we started this conversation, which is a lot of people set those profit targets and they give themselves this expectation largely because they want a certain level of money to probably pay for the full-time trading lifestyle that they're envisioning, right?

40:08The moment you drop that and you have just day-to-day expenses covered from a job, a business, a side hustle, whatever it's going to be, actually there is no reason, logical or rational reason to set yourself a profit objective. Because the hardest lesson that I had to learn was there is literally no amount of analysis that will ever guarantee the outcome of the next trade, week or month. Yeah, of course.

40:37You kind of just have to learn to find comfort in that uncertainty which is very very difficult as not just a trader but a human. Yeah. I I think a lot of people they kind of you know they set New Year's resolutions like I will get 100k funding this year. Um but you can't do that because it's outside of your control. Um so I I did that for a while and every quarter I was like reach a million funding.

41:02Reach a million funding. Reach a million funding. and you know it just was not happening because it's not within my control. So then I started setting quarterly goals of um you know what was in my control which was ensure I I I I have a grading system for my trades. So I set quarterly goals of I will have an average trade grade of nine or above this quarter. Um and once I started setting goals like that which were within my control whether that's uh you know not taking a trade that I regret taking high trade averages um and not setting goals for things that are outside of your control.

41:43Well then I hit a million in funding pretty soon after I did that when I started focusing on the process and not the outcome. It's always a very hard thing to accept as human beings, but it is like exactly what you said. When we start to focus on the process, yeah,

42:00the natural byproduct of doing that becomes all of the things that we want, but it's always difficult to see that in the moment. Yeah. Profit is um it's a side effect of doing trading successfully. Yeah. And trading successfully is following your plan to a tea, managing your emotions, managing your risk. you do those things and profit is the side effect. It's the reward and you should not strive to achieve that reward. You should strive to trade as good as possible. Um, and I think you can do it with pretty much any trading strategy that has positive riskreward as long as you've got your psychology in check.

42:36It doesn't really matter where you're entering or what crazy risk management you're doing. As long as you're just positive riskreward, managing your emotions, I think most people could be profitable traders. It's got much more complicated than that, to be honest. It's really funny you mentioned that. Um, I did a uh a podcast. Well, not actually, no, that's not a that's not true. It wasn't a podcast. It was a live stream um with a trader a few months ago.

43:05And he was actually one of the first people that I had met over the many years that I've been in this game that actually trades with a negative risk-to-reward. And so, you know, for every $100 he's risking, he's looking to make 50. And I was like, damn, that's like that's very weird. But what he said, and incidentally, I'm sure this is something you'll resonate with, risk-to-reward and win rate are inversely correlated, right? So he said by bringing down the risk-to-reward that I was looking for on each individual trade, my win rate is subsequently quite high.

43:34He's used to 70 80% and he maintains that level. And he said my problem was he actually started off as a swing trader but by reducing the risk-to-reward he actually found his consistency improved and for his psychology. So that was much better for me. Yeah, it's an interesting conversation and you know you you've made me think to be honest you don't even necessarily need a positive riskreward. You just need good risk management. Yeah. And that's all it takes ultimately. Yeah. I think the reason I'm so cool with trading a really low win rate strategy is I've got a very high tolerance for losing streaks, draw downs.

44:17Um I think what win rate you're at is basically just what kind of mental difficulty you're able to handle. Um, and I was like, "Yeah, well, I'll just crank that all the way up. I'll do the hardest possible mental challenge that I can, and then I just get huge trades." Um, which I enjoy. Yeah. Um, but I think it's not very rewarding for prop firms because when prop firms see that you're just your your your equity curve is just trickling down. Yeah. For months and months and months and then you just have a huge spike, quite often they're like, "We're not paying you that."

44:48They just deny your payout. So I do to be honest I need to uh either adjust my strategy for prop firms or I need to cap my trades which is something I had to start doing when I had the huge FTMO payout. Um they didn't really they were a bit hesitant with just sending out $100,000. Um so after that I was like right I'm not going to let any trades run beyond 10% anymore.

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46:07Try it out and watch your trading transform. Um, you mentioned a word uh probably 5 10 minutes ago that has stuck in my mind, right? And I really want to dive into because it is something that I am a huge advocate of and I think it's something that most probably traders that are watching this right now, they lack. You mentioned self-awareness. Yeah. Right. Um I I don't think self-awareness is it comes natural to most people but hands down if you if we strip back the idea of the importance of actually having an edge which massively important for you as a trader to be able to consistently apply that edge.

46:46I believe you need a certain level of awareness. Yeah. To allow you to be consistent with your behavior. Mhm. Have you always been someone that has been relatively self-aware? And are there specific things that you do to help improve that awareness for yourself? You know, I thought I was somebody that was self-aware until I started trading. Yeah, I thought I was somebody that was really, you know, kind of honest with myself, didn't lie to myself, um, until I started trading.

47:07And I think most people would say the same. Uh, but you don't know that you're lying to yourself until you start trading. Um, and to be honest, you can trade and lie to yourself and not be self-aware and never realize and, you know,

47:32pull your hair out, go crazy. Why can't I be consistently profitable and then you go ahead and, you know, just lie to yourself like, "Yeah, that was a good trade. I take that again." And then, you know, two years later, you're looking back and it's like, "What the hell was I doing there?" Um, so yeah, being self-aware, especially as a swing trader, especially as somebody that takes so few trades, super important.

47:52And the way that I kind of train that muscle is journaling really helps. I uh I journal every day, not just trading, but just like how I'm feeling, what's going on. And I I' I'm really proud because I've got um I've got five black uh Moleskin journals now with the date on the side where I've journ I've got an entry every day. So, you know, thou over a thousand entries now, and I'm hoping that I can do that for the rest of my life.

48:16Um, I'm sure the grandkids will hate me because I'll have 80 books with what I've done every day and how I felt every day, but guys, it's really made a huge difference for um for trading. Um, and then I also have my trade journal on the side where I review it and then I also review it at the end of the week um when I've taken a trade, otherwise there's nothing to review. Yeah. Um, and then I also have my monthly review as well.

48:41So, lots lots of journaling, lots of reviews. Um, because it's crazy how emotions can cloud your reasoning. Uh, you know, at the for the for the first hour after taking a bad trade, I'll I'll be justifying it to myself. I'll think it's fine. Um, and it's not until, you know, maybe the weekend, and if not the weekend, then the end of the month where I'm actually able to be honest with myself.

49:04Um, going on walks really helps as well. preferably somewhere where you can talk out loud to your I I probably look a little bit crazy. Um I live in the countryside now and I can do that. But when I when I was not in the countryside, I'd I'd just be walking like talking out loud like, "Ah, was that a good trade?" You know, I'm sure that wick was small, right? And people probably think I'm a little bit strange. Um so yeah, I do that as well.

49:29I go somewhere quiet. Um yeah, that those are my processes. But yeah, if if if you're not sure that whe whether you're being honest and self-aware um and you're questioning that, then you're probably not being honest and self-aware. Um yeah, I think that that's what I would say. Journaling, taking walks, journaling again, and doing lots of reviews. Are are all of your journals handwritten? Yeah. Yeah. So, I've got um my trading journal isn't.

50:00That's on notion. But my personal just life mental what I've done that day journals, they're all handwritten. Yeah. And have you have you ever thought about going digital with the personal journals as well? I've not There's something really nice about writing by hand. I actually uh I had my whole life on journal. It was like my second brain. And I bought a remarkable tablet.

50:24I don't know if you've heard about those. So cool. So worth it. My wife, she was like, "What? Why? You're not going to use that? Why'd you spend £300 on one of those? And she's like, "Oh, fair enough. You do use it a lot." Um, yeah. So, I I really like writing by hand. I think there's something about physically putting your thoughts down somewhere. You're really able to kind of close it away and put it aside versus typing and uh having it online.

50:41There's it doesn't really um leave you, if that makes sense. I think when you've got something difficult in your mind, it's really being able to physically put it away in a book. I think that makes a big difference compared to typing on a keyboard and logging it digitally. But for trade journals, it's important because otherwise I'd be trying to sketch my my trades, you know, screenshot in there. That would not be handy.

51:11100%. I I only I only ask because I I started on a very similar path, which is I This is actually one, if I'm being completely honest, I don't do a lot of anymore, which is the personal journals, at least on a day-to-day basis. The trade journals I'm pretty religious with. I will do if not end of day then end of week. Um again I I don't tend to trade every single day as a swing trader.

51:33Um but I I actually found a massive benefit in going from handwritten to digital largely because stupidly my handwriting sucks. honestly large reason but from a more practical standpoint um I found in terms of like pattern recognition it's far easier to do that

51:58digitally because you can just search a keyword a phrase you can use you know the filtering tools to look at certain things like you know you'll understand this obviously from uh your notion you can filter and look at only winning trades or only losing trades or only breaking even trades or ones where you broke your process and things like that and so I actually found that Even from a personal standpoint before I kind of gave up that process um just when I'm looking to become more self-aware about myself in terms of my actions, my behavior, my thoughts, understanding that pattern of behavior was very very interesting.

52:31I'm a big fan of I like reading a lot of um audio books. This it's the only form of like reading that I really do. Yeah. And one of the the big ones that I was very keen on was Atomic Habits. I don't know if you've ever read that. James Clear, is it? Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Um, great book. But he he showed like there was a real connection between the actions that you take and you know there's always a trigger to start things off.

52:53And so I became very fascinated with understanding like what is the thought or the belief or the emotion which is driving some of these actions that either had to do with my trading or to do with my personal life. And one thing which you haven't touched on which I'm actually keen to figure out if this is something you've ever explored before was meditation was a huge part of my self-awareness. So outside journaling I'm a massive advocate of but I was actually seeing if you would touch on meditation at all if that's ever something you've experimented with.

53:25Yeah, I have. Um it's something that is massively helpful for trading honestly and it's something I I could do more of. Um, I think if I started struggling with my psychology or my discipline, I I would pick up meditation again. Um, yeah, I would definitely recommend meditation to anybody. And it's really easy. It's just sitting there and trying to notice your thoughts, not trying to stop them, just seeing what passes by. Yeah. Um, and that is an excellent practice which for self-awareness 100%.

54:03Yeah. meditation is probably the best. Uh, and yeah, I did practice doing that. Um, and I don't think I meditated very well to be honest. I think I would find myself getting distracted. Uh, and it's a it's a it's a it's a very good muscle to train if you can get really good at meditation. Uh, I'd love to be really good at it. Um, but I couldn't really I don't know why I stopped doing it really.

54:27I I think I was meditating like a pre-warmup for getting into the markets, but then there weren't really I didn't really have very super uh loads of loads of trades. Um so I didn't see the benefit, but I also read affirmations. I don't know. Do you have any affirmations with your trading? I'm not a huge advocate. Maybe not advocate is the right word. I don't practice a lot of like using affirmations on a day-to-day basis.

54:52Not because I don't believe in them, but purely because I I think for me, I never saw a huge benefit of of doing it each and every day. But I know a fair few people that use them quite frequently and they find a lot of benefit in them.

55:09I I'm usually of the mindset of like, look, for me, as long as something doesn't have a downside, then it's worth exploring. It's worth trying out. And if it gives you a great benefit, then I think stay consistent. I think I think you're as good as your affirmations. I got I got some really good affirmations uh which I've curated. Maybe I can get them out. Please. Yeah, please. That would be super interesting. A second. Are these specifically trading related or They are. I've got personal life affirmations.

55:33Um like I will be a good father, you know, more specific than that to be honest. Um but I've also got trading affirmations and again like meditation, it's something that I could it's something that I could definitely do more of. Um, okay. So, I've got five affirmations and I'd read these every morning. Um, I am a consistently profitable trader. I am paid to be patient. That one's helped me a lot because otherwise I start to feel impulsive like we spoke about earlier.

56:04Um, so that keeps me being patient because I'm paid to be patient. Um, and then I've also kind of reformed some Mark Douglas quotes because he puts things really successful. uh the outcomes of my individual trades do not matter. Every moment in the market is unique and anything can happen. So that's one about following my process. Yeah. Uh I always maintain a neutral mindset.

56:28I don't need to know what's going to happen next in order to produce a consistent income. There is a random distribution between wins and losses. So yeah, just hammering home process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And then last one is I practice my art every day which is just to remind me if there's no trades then I can still work on trading. I can back test. I can refine my data set. I can read my affirmations. I can meditate. I can journal. There's always something trading related that you can be doing.

56:55Um so yeah my my morning routine was I would I'd wake up, I'd go for a walk. Uh you know that that really helps clear your mind. And then I'd read my affirmations. I'd meditate. And then I back test. And the reason it took me so long to start live trading is because I would do that process just two hours a day. I wouldn't really do any more than that. Um and that's and then I would live trade just checking the charts once per hour, which is like minutes, you know.

57:24Um so yeah, my process was primarily just back testing most days. Interesting. Um there is one thing I wanted to dive into and again something that you touched on a little bit earlier which fascinated me a little bit. You mentioned how in today's day and age actually your approach has become far more discretionary. Your kind of trade plan is is just all in your head. What before that were you fairly mechanical in your approach? I was as mechanical as I could be.

57:55I wasn't counting pips or anything. Okay. Um but it was I had you know maybe a checklist of like five to six bullet points which were in themselves fairly discretionary you know like prior price action has to have momentum or be impulsive which is was kind of discretionary. Yeah. Um so yeah I did have a fairly semi- mechanical trade plan. I because I I'm an advocate for most I think especially new traders I think it's beneficial to start with something mechanical and regression is only something that is developed over time and experience.

58:28Yeah. So I guess the question that I had for you is for somebody watching this that is I I don't know maybe thinking about having a discretionary approach or currently has a discretionary approach when is the right time to actually introduce that like when should you stay mechanical up to before you can say I have enough time and experience to now introduce a certain level of discretion that I think will actually improve my R over time.

58:49Yeah. Um, so I would say the best traders trade intuitively and discretionary. I think I I would be pretty firm on that. And that's because the market conditions are always changing. Every day is different. There are no two days that are the same. And to be able to be flexible and agile in the markets, you really need to be flexible and agile yourself. And the way that you can know that you're kind of ready to start transitioning into a more discretionary trade plan is if you find that your mechanical trade plan is holding you back and maybe it feels a little bit rigid.

59:33Um that's the position that I was in maybe two or three years ago. Um and it wasn't an easy transition because I had a lot of comfort in my trade plan. It kept my psychology sound. it kept my trades of high quality. So to kind of remove that and go purely based on just what I felt on the day um was quite difficult and scary because it required a lot of self-awareness and honesty. Yeah. Um which is something you can't acquire through day-to-day, you know, being a human.

1:00:08It's only from trading that you can kind of get that. Um, so my trade plan, it went from really specific, um, you know, if this, then that checklist of like 10 points and visual cues to, um, is there momentum? And then if yes, you know, move to the next step. Is there a shift in momentum? If no, move to the next step. And then, um, it went a bit further than that. I haven't used that trade plan for a few years either.

1:00:38It was it was like three really simple discretionary open-ended questions rather than closed end checkboxes. And now it's literally just is the trade beautiful and that's what that's my trade plan in essence. Um and I'm basically just

1:00:54looking for momentum no shift in momentum is prior price action looking good and that that's it. And uh then everything else is just purely intuitive, you know, thousands of hours of back testing, ten tens of thousands of candles. Um yeah. Did you Changing the subject a little bit on Trading View this year? They kind of had like a Spotify uh year in review. Did you have one of those? Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:20I I think I had like 200,000 candles back tested because just so many candles back tested. And that's how you build like intuitive trading. Uh that it's just pure pure pure experience. Um and otherwise definitely stick with your little mechanical comfort sheet. I I always uh I always advise people to I I think it's quite a linear path that I get people to go through when it comes to introducing discretion, which is I tell people to start as mechanical as possible. Yeah. And every time you have a discretionary impulse, write down next to the actual outcome of your mechanical plan, what would have happened?

1:02:00And over the next 20, 50, 100, 500 trades, you will then have data that shows you that your discretion, that gut feeling, that instinct that you get is actually outperforming your mechanical plan. And then it actually gives you a lot of confidence. But I I also go the other way and this was going to be the thing that I ask you which is now that you've almost gone full discretionary. Do you actually measure what would happen if you had a full mechanical plan to see if you're outperforming your mechanical approach or if you're underperforming?

1:02:26I I I I don't but I don't have to because I see it all the time. I there's so many losses if I followed my mechanical trade plan. I'm really pleased I transitioned into a discretionary trade plan when I did um because the the cue for me to do that was there were trades setting up which looked really nice. There's a lot of things in trading that can't be easily quantified and I really wanted a mechanical trade plan. I really wanted to make it work. I tried setting up like a scoring system.

1:03:00Um but I was I was basically building an algorithm on with plus ones and minus ones. It was way too over complicated. And the the scores of these variables change depending on the context of the other ones. So like I really wanted to build a scored trading uh trading plan and but but a descending channel in this setup may be worth plus two and in this setup it's worth plus one.

1:03:23So it was just not possible and then I was just like I've just got to do it myself. Um but yeah, like what you said um I see trades that I used to take losing every week. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I the I I remember I transitioned to a discretionary trade plan when some of my peers didn't and those peers aren't trading anymore. So, it was definitely the right move to uh start taking on the trading decisions myself rather than relying on these six kind of bullet points.

1:03:56Yeah. Uh you can definitely outgrow your trade plan. Trade plans can only be so they can only be so complex before they're not useful anymore. uh and my trade plan would have had to be like a massive mind map. Uh it just would not have been practical. Um and yeah, so now it's just discretionary in my mind. Yeah. Very very interesting. Yeah,

1:04:21it's an interesting conversation for sure. Um okay, Griff, I want to start winding things down a little bit. Cool. Yeah. Um I have a couple of things that I like to do at the end of every episode. Um you're going to be no exception today. Sounds good. Um, one of them very basic, few quickfire questions that I want to throw your way, get your insights on a few things, and then we're going to move into something which I like to call confessions of a trader, which I will explain.

1:04:43Um, I'll be good at that. Yeah. Uh, starting off with a few quickfire questions. Um, yeah. What do you What do you think is one habit that will help improve your patience the most? Oh, you don't make it easy. I'm always giving you long answers. Uh, quickfire question, right? Uh, I would say journaling. Medit. Meditating. Yeah, meditating. Nice. That's the one. What do you think every new trader should be doing at the start of their journey? Watching a lot of YouTube videos.

1:05:17I would say I'd say you really don't want to waste time working on a strategy that you end up changing three months later. You want to be able to choose one thing and stick with it no matter what. That was really important for me. Um, so yeah, I would say broaden your horizons. Nice. Um, what do you believe is one behavior that ruins consistency? Uh, the trader. The trader can really you can really sabotage yourself.

1:05:45I like that. Um, and last one, maybe more personal one for you. What is one rule that you will never break? One rule that I will never break. um journal every day. Nice. I like that. I like that. Okay, so final segment for today. Um like I said, I like to call this confessions of a trader. Okay, this is a compilation of tons of conversations that I've had

1:06:12with traders over the years where they have told me about their problems in some way, shape, or form that I package up and tailor as a confession, okay, to each one of our guests. And at some point, we're going to have the audience send in their own confessions, which we read out at some point. But I have one for you today. I'm going to read it out for you. All right. And all I want is your honest thoughts, uh, feedback, advice that you would give to a trader that is coming to you with I'm being like a trading priest.

1:06:36Exactly. I'm on the other side of the Exactly. the box. Yeah. Okay. Right. Cool. So, this trader says, "I know I should wait for highquality setups, but when the market is moving every day, I feel like I'm constantly missing opportunities. I end up forcing trades to get involved. How do you genuinely stay patient without feeling like you're wasting time?" That's a That's a problem. That's a problem that you've got there, my friend. Um, right. All right. Well, I'm assuming that this person is trading on the lower time frames.

1:07:13I would say easiest easiest way is to jump up a few time frames. You're not going to be feeling as much FOMO anymore. Um, don't compare yourself with others too much. Uh, try and stay in your lane. Everyone's on a different journey and people are only sharing the best side of their trading. So, you know, that that induces a lot of a lot of FOMO and it causes you to be impulsive and not be patient. Um, and then all the processes we talked about earlier, you know, journaling, going on walks, meditating, super boring, but they work.

1:07:42Trading in essence is boring. It's not supposed to be an exciting money-making thing. Um, so yeah, I would I would say those things will definitely make a difference for that person. Beautiful. I love that, man. Griff, thank you so much for coming here today. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Honestly, everything you've shared has been like wind in my sales.

1:08:11It's been right up my alley. Oh, that's great. It's been a great conversation. I wish we could talk for longer. Yeah, I've enjoyed this. Thank you, Sanj. Thank you so much, guys and girls. You know the time. It's over to you. Let us know what you thought of today's episode. What was the one thing or multiple things that Griff shared today that resonated with you?

1:08:30What's the one thing that you're going to take away and apply to your trading to help you to become more consistent both in your trading, your actions, your behavior, your thoughts, your process? That was a lot of the big things that I took away from Griffin, his approach to how he's conquered the markets over the last few years. Thank you guys so much for tuning in today. It is always a pleasure to host for you guys.

1:08:49Make sure you like this video, subscribe to the channel for more interviews like this, and I look forward to seeing you in the next one. Take care my friends.