Amas on 1:1 risk-to-reward, backtesting and running prop accounts

0:00If I can scalp 15 to 20 handles every single day within the market, I'll be free for the rest of my life. The same trades that will make you $200 today will eventually make you 2,000 or maybe 10,000. But you need to have most traders online will tell you that the bigger the risk-to-reward, the better. Our guest today built his consistency by doing the exact opposite. I rather make $6,000 per month consistently than making 20,000 a month and losing 10,000 activation fee the other month.

0:20If you don't back test your strategy, you don't have more than thousands of trades backlisted within a folder, you're gambling in my opinion. Absolutely gambling. Meet Amas and he's gone on to generate consistent foreign 5 figure payouts by trying to keep things simple. In today's conversation, he preaches the benefit of using a onetoone risk-to-reward and explains how that fits both his strategy and his psychology. That one:1 risk-to-reward approach is something that you can survive in any market conditions.

0:50So many people look at the one minute chart and try to predict future prices. One to twos, one to threes. Why don't you focus on something that is replicable? You need to know that what makes someone profitable is not his ability to win in trades. It's his ability to. But what really makes the conversation interesting is actually how he approaches prop firms. You see, he treats evaluations and funded accounts as two completely different environments.

1:14This episode is a true masterclass in understanding why consistency is so important and why strategy hopping will keep you stuck. Being a lone wolf within the trading space or when you are trying to make it in trading is the worst mistake that you can make. I don't take the evaluations as seriously as my friend because there is something called let's get into it. Now our guest today has achieved amazing things in a relatively short space of time.

1:41They've really been into this game for the last 3 years or so. And in that time frame, they've done $200,000 from the markets with the bulk of that actually coming within the last year or so. They've been able to maintain doing four to five figure payouts consistently and that's really down to their strategic approach as well as their mentality of how they have supported that.

2:04I'm really interested to get inside the mind of our guest. Without any further ado, it is my pleasure to introduce Amas. What's up? How you doing, man? Good. What about you? Very good. Thank you, man. Um, firstly, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time. Um, I want to kick straight off if you don't mind. There is something about your story, your approach to the market which really intrigued me. I tend to find when you look at social media, the landscape of retail traders in today's day and age, most people are going on the path of focusing on high-risisk reward.

2:40They're trying to maximize every scent that they can from every position that they're taking. You do things a little bit differently. You focus on taking trades with a onetoone or very simple clean approach. Why do you think that gives you so much more of an edge in the market in terms of consistency? So really good question. I would say I use a onetoone risk toward because back testing is such a huge part of my trading. I tried to trade a one to three, one to two, but um my back testing never showed me really good results with that.

3:09And I can't enter a trade without knowing that I have a,000, 2,000, 3,000 back tested trades. And if I'm in a break even or draw down streak, I will eventually get out of that draw down if I keep trading the same system. So I never truly found a way mechanically to be profitable with a 1 to2, one to three. And I have a different view of this market. Uh I think this market is very hard. It is a market that is really liquid.

3:41The one that I'm trading, so indices is very liquid and there's a lot of manipulations in it. If I hold my trades for too long, I am involved in way more manipulation that if I get in in and out very fast. Um there is things like spoofing, stacking and pulling. Uh a lot of things that are considered illegal but will happen within the markets and um you will not basically know the reason why you lost.

4:07So uh I like to keep it simple uh base hits that base hit mentality going for one to one risk towards and you know taking my profits. Um I would say also it's way better for my personality. I'm a guy who when I want basically when I get in the market I want to be right quick and I want to be wrong quick and it's something that I never truly found like I said with uh a one to two one to three price tends to go back to your break even and your heart is is pumping because you have some you know unrealized profits floating so uh yeah not the best for me.

4:43So you found that onetoone was generally just the best approach for you. It's not that you don't believe it's possible to make money consistently with higher risk to reward. Yeah, it's I I would say mechanically it is very hard to have a system that you can replicate over the long run and explain the reason why someone who's going against you would lose over the long run with a high risk. It is very very hard because of the manipulation because of also how much price discovery we actually have within the indices market.

5:14I you know I follow a lot of stock traders and a lot of you know crypto traders and the the price action within the indices is kind of different. You will have some months of accumulation where price just goes nowhere. And if you have a 1 to three one to four and you swing for the fences then these are going to be the months where you're going to give back a lot of profits that you made throughout the year. And

5:38that one:1 risk-to-reward approach is something that you can survive in any market conditions. You are in, you're out. And like I said, the the the same trades that will make you $200 today will eventually make you 2,000 or maybe 10,000. But you need to have that mindset of all right, I need to be able to replicate that trade and know that I can scalp 10, 15, 20 handles every single day within the market and uh do it consistently.

6:03Um why why is it do you think that so many people move away from that idea? Because you've explained it quite well. What you've explained is is logical. It makes sense. It's rational. I think there's there's definitely some logic behind what you've described there. But at least I tend to see from looking at the landscape of retail traders, especially aspiring traders, they are constantly lost in the idea of, you know, I've taken a one to two or one to three, but it's not enough.

6:26I could have made more had I just held it. Price continued to tank and I I could have made so much more from this. How do you get people to see that actually maybe what they're doing is not really the best thing either strategically or psychologically and open their eyes to something different? I think a lot of people are introduced to high risktoward trading and it's the first thing that you'll see on YouTube. Risk less than what you're going to make.

6:56But I will say that it is way harder to replicate it replicate those results in the long run if you have a high risk toward because of the different market regimes, different market conditions. And why are you so focused on having a trade that looks good on paper and looks aesthetic when in reality something that has a negative risk toward something that is 0.8 an eight risk toward could make you more money because it's more consistent and better for your psychology.

7:28A lot of people trade those high risk toward systems, but for it to be really good, you kind of need to use some discretion in it. And discretion for me is other words for gambling. Especially when you're starting out trading, you're most likely going to have the wrong intuition within the markets. What are you basing your trade off of or what data are you basing your trade off of to tell me that you're going to go break even here or let it ride to a one to five?

7:57That's for me that's gambling. And it's it was never my approach. My approach was if I can scalp 15 to 20 handles every single day within the market, I'll be free for the rest of my life. That was my framework. And I knew that even though it would take me five, four or five years and I would make $2,000 per month, eventually those trades will get bigger. And it's about the consistency rather than what you missed out on.

8:22Um, also I think a lot of people don't believe in onetoone risk towards because they don't necessarily have the skill in terms of technicals. Some people genuinely believe that this market you you can't have a 70% win rate or you can't have a 65% win rate because you're eventually going to hit your draw down streak. And for me, uh, a guy that back tested so much, I would say is literally the only thing that I remember in my last three years of my the last three years of my life was back testing.

8:51And I I can tell you that it's possible. It's possible if you have the right metrics. It's possible if you know exactly what you're doing, if you know how to use time, if you know how to use price, and if you have a certain framework that you understand the market mechanics rather than focusing so much on an entry model. Yeah. So many people look at the one minute chart and try to predict future prices, one to twos, one to threes.

9:23Why don't you focus on something that is replicable, something that is consistent, and eventually scale that up, you know? And for my mindset, it was so much better because we all have that gambling urge. But if you go for consistent base hits and you let you know your copy trader do the heavy lifting. Yeah. If you let the time do the heavy lifting, then you'll be way more peaceful.

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12:01already a couple of points during our conversation so far, and I think it's an interesting conversation to get into, which is back testing. Now, I'm actually very similar to you. I think back testing is a very useful exercise. I think it's the most efficient way to collect a lot of data in a very short space of time to prove that an edge actually exists. But to play devil's advocate, we've had we've actually had a lot of previous guests that have not put so much emphasis on back testing and they don't they dismissed the idea of it and what they actually like doing is collecting more data, forward testing, live testing things.

12:29What's your opinion on this? Like I I understand obviously you're going to be a little bit more swayed towards back testing because that's been your history. Where where do you kind of sit with this argument in terms of back testing versus forward testing? If you don't back test your strategy, if you don't have more than thousands of trades back tested within a folder, you're gambling in my opinion. Absolutely gambling. You're telling me I always compare trading to a professional sport and the best sport that I can compare that to is boxing.

13:04Okay. How do you want to have a good jab or a good cross without practicing it every single day and knowing that your mechanic is good? Knowing that the way that you frame the movement is good. If you only rely on forward testing, then you're going to risk your own money to learn. How does that make sense? Why don't you learn those metrics? Why don't you learn how to adapt to the market conditions within back testing and see every single possible scenario within the last 5 years before actually risking your own money, you know, and I think a lot of the psychology mistakes or psychology issues of people is based on the lack of skill.

14:00There's a there's a famous quote I would say that Lent uh gave famous trader stock trader and it goes by this. A lot of traders especially beginner traders um will get fooled into thinking that what they're trading is edge but in reality they're blind. They're trading complete nonsense, complete randomness. And I think it's the reality for a lot of people. they if you rely on forward testing and you don't know that what you trade is actually back tested and has years of data on it then I don't know what you're trading actually and even when we talk about the data how much data is it enough for you to consider a strategy being profitable you know I always say that it's exactly like a coin flip if you flip a coin 50 times then you can get heads 37 times out of that 50.

14:58But does that mean that your thumb has an edge over the that coin flip? Hell no. If you do it a million times, I can guarantee you'll be 4951 or 50/50. And that's how you know the it's the law of big numbers. The more data you have on your strategy, the closer you are, the closer you'll know the real statistic of your edge. And if you dismiss that, you're completely blind. and you're trading something potentially that works right now, but as soon as they will stop trading, you will lose you will lose your skill and you will not know how to adapt.

15:31And adapting is literally the most important I would say important concept of trading because even if you're mechanical, even if you have a certain strategy, having a static approach to a dynamic market is hard. Okay, it's hard. And for me, I like to adapt my entries. I like to adapt my fib levels, the pullbacks depending on the market conditions.

16:01But how can you do this if you know, you don't know exactly that your strategy worked in the past or you did this in the past to, you know, get out of that draw down? You know, it's it's it's for me it's mind-blowing that people don't back test. Yeah. I I mean, look, I agree with you. I'm very open to the idea that everyone's going to find their edge in different ways. I think reading the likes of things like Market Wizards opens your eyes to the the way that there are hundreds, thousands of ways that you could potentially trade the market, purely fundamental, purely technical, a hybrid of both, whatever it is.

16:26But people will find their edge in different ways. But it's always interesting to hear people's perspectives and opinions on this. But I largely I agree with you. I think it's the most efficient way to ensure that you actually have an edge because the question I always ask people is how do you know your strategy works and if you don't have data you don't know you don't know you're just you're just guessing right there something that you've touched on here which is I think back testing gives you at least the starting of a a foundation for your edge but how you've applied it in terms of your risk model of just onetoone you've touched a lot on the idea that it's actually beneficial for your psychology right Now I come from I guess the the belief that there is no one strategy that you will trade that

17:20will be good for everyone. I think however you decide to trade there is pain associated with that. So for example with trading an approach that has a onetoone risk-to-reward the pain that you might experience is that sometimes you'll get into trades that absolutely tank and continue to go in your favor 100% and you will be on the sidelines watching them experiencing that pain. But much like you described, there will also be people that aim for higher risk-to-reward and have to go through the pain of watching those trades come back, knock them out at break even, go through losing streaks.

17:50How do you deal with the hard parts of trading one to one, right, which is obviously seeing trades continue on without you? How do you deal with that psychologically? I think I I don't have a hard time looking at my trade going 50 60 handles let's say more uh let's say going into profits above my take profit. Why? Because I know how hard it is to replicate that trade over the long run. Not every market condition will be you know distributing 50 60 100 handles.

18:25Yeah. what I know is 15 20 in any ranges I can find that you know and the pain associated with my system would a little bit would be more related to losing streaks okay and it will be to also being satisfied with being a six-figure trader rather than seven figure trader and let me get into that because it's something that is not talked enough a onetoone riskreward is something that is very hard to skill.

18:56Okay. Basically, when I started with that approach, I sat down, I was like, what is the way that I can make sure that I sleep well at night knowing that I can scalp 10 15 handles every single day? It was one to one for me with my approach. But the more skin I got in the game, the more um experience I I got, the more I understood that it was hard to scale because being in a 10 15 handle scalp and starting to risk 20 to $50,000 is extremely unhealthy.

19:23And in that part, I'm good with being a multiple six-figure funded trader or multiple make making multiple six figures a year, but at a certain point, um, making seven figures from scalping with my approach is mostly impossible. And you see it's kind of that mindset where okay I'm going for consistency but I'm not delusional in a way where uh I I just I know it's it's hard to scale and for me to make a lot of money I need to risk a lot.

19:58Okay. So on average u the my strategy will give me five to six Rs per month. Five to six Rs per month. A lot of people who trade higher risk reward would get that in one trade. How consistent is that? Can you replicate that over five years? Maybe you'll lose all that money within a span of three months because you're go you're gonna go on tilt and nothing you can't read the market anymore, you know, or you lost your edge. So you you mentioned there that like one of your pain points is not necessarily watching trades run without you because I presume your data has given you that indication that actually it's not as it's not as easy to replicate over time to capture those moves consistently is maybe the right way to put it.

20:39But the pain that you often experience is the losing streaks. Yeah. Now, from what I understand, purely from a math perspective, to make a one-to-one system work, you have to have a higher win rate. And I presume that comes in correlation with it, right? You tend to find that they are inversely correlated. What sort of losing streaks do you experience and how do you go about dealing with that specific pain point? That's a very good question. The losing streaks are inevitable. It will happen especially, I would say, in the worst moments, you know, when you're the most confident and they're going to blindside you.

21:18Um, the the mar let's say the market conditions where I have the most the hardest time would be the summer months because they move really slowly and we kind of have high resistance within those months. And at that point, let's say when I have a losing streak and I start to give back the money that I've made in the previous month because it's a onetoone, you you're most likely it's it's going to happen. I don't overthink it. I just keep trading the same system because I fall back on my data after you know it's like I always have that safety net of like coping that coping mechanism of relying on my data.

21:56I have like let's say I'm on a big losing streak. I'm like, "Hey, Amos, you have 4,000 trades back tested within the same exact system entering in the same exact moment, time and price, and it went there and you know how to adapt. Why are you stressing right now?" But if I didn't have that, I would be panicking. I I will I would have been, you know, thinking about stop stopping trading basically or, you know, I would have believed that I lost my edge.

22:29But if I can always rely on uh something that was proven in the past, it's so easy to adapt. It's so easy to bounce back from losses. But I would say that yes, there is a pain from those losing streaks, but you'll eventually get out of that draw. Like you will eventually get out of that draw down. It's it's sure it's it's um it's just a question of time and a question of not panicking within those moments. And let's say those why is back testing so important for me is because it gives you a good perspective of what you should expect from the market.

23:10A lot of people have unreal unrealistic expectations from the markets and think that their strategy should give them a higher return that what the strategy is actually going to give them. Mhm. And having those metrics, I know that on average I make five to six Rs, knowing that if I make more, that's a really good month for me. If I make less, that's that's okay. But on average, I'll make this.

23:34So, I'm not panicking at all. Never. Even uh on those losing streaks, I know I'm going to I'm going to get back on top basically. Yeah. So, am I am I right in concluding that like data is kind of the foundation for everything for you? Because from how you've described it so far, it doesn't just give you the belief that the edge is there. It also creates the right expectations and it also helps you during the tough periods, right?

23:58It gives you that again going back to that belief aspect to understand that if I just stick with this approach, it will get me out of this, you know, short-term period of losing streaks. Exactly like you described the the coin flip, right? Yeah. How do you in in the moment where you have experienced the losing streak and

24:18you're going through that phase where maybe you're just naturally experiencing that doubt um that maybe impulse to want to try something different? How do you deal with the idea of not actually jumping strategies? Because this is a mistake that I made a lot early into my career, right? I didn't have my data, granted, but every time I experienced a losing streak, it could have been a couple of trades. It could have been a a draw down month. I would get to a phase and I'd be like, clearly it's my strategy.

24:44It's broken. It just doesn't work anymore and I would want to change. How do you deal with the impulse to want to change strategies? And what would you say to the person that maybe is jumping from one strategy to another? I think it's uh the easiest way to stay unprofitable and the fastest way to stay unprofitable. Usually when you want to switch strategies, you want to switch it quick. But it's the same thing for relationships in life. It's not better on the other side.

25:10It's the same thing. If you have a friend and you think that he does this, this, this, and that bad. If you switch friends, you're going to see that there's also a downside. Yeah. Okay. There he's also not going to be perfect. And nobody's perfect. And it's the same thing for strategies. It's not better on the other side. There is going to be losing streak with that other strategy. there is also going to be a period of time where you will need to adapt where you will need to learn the strategy uh all the ins and outs.

25:40So, I will say that the reason why I don't do it anymore, and I did, is because I tried it and I failed with it, you know, and I saw how hard it was to actually learn and be good with a new strategy because of all the hard work that I put in in my other strategies, you know? So, like if you've been working on a strategy for two years and then you're you experience a losing streak that is brutal and makes you want to quit or makes you, you know, doubt your edge.

26:17If you switch strategies right now, are you going to be more profitable or are you going to start that learning curve all the way back and you're going to end up in that cycle of non-ending nonsense basically? Yeah. And uh yeah, I tried it, failed. And one big part of that would be accountability and it would be community. Being a lone wolf within the trading space or you know when you're trying to make it in trading is the worst mistake that you can make. Teamwork makes the dream work.

26:47And I done I've done everything with my brother literally from the start. started with my brother, practiced with my brother, found my edge with my brother, and when we were in draw down streaks, we were in them together. When we were in losing streaks, we're in them together. So, I had a trading buddy, okay? You know, I had someone that I could be accountable. If I blew my accounts, I would go to him. I would say, "Yeah, I did that wrong." And it would be like, "You're stupid, but it's all good.

27:15You're going to make it all back. We have the data, bro." You know? So um I think that aspect of community is really important. We have I say that it's the easiest time to become profitable but also the hardest time to become profitable. We have everything in place. We have back testing softwares. We have journaling softwares. We have prop firms that are giving us huge leverage. We have Discord communities with hundreds of thousands of people, like-minded people with the same objective, same aspirations as you to become a profitable trader.

27:49Why don't you use them in order to become the best version of yourself and the best trader possible? And one I'll say this, it would have been impossible for me to make that much money or to find that level of success without him or without the people that helped me in the way. Impossible. If you have three people, three brains working on a certain strategy, you're you're cutting out your learning curve in three years, literally. And you're accountable to them.

28:22And when um there's bad times, they're going to lift you up. And I think it's something that a lot of people need to find a trading buddy, find a community, find accountability also to their actions. M I I really like this idea and I do think it's so important for a lot of people, but I have a caveat to this and it it's not that I disagree with the point in any way, but I the one thing I always say is I'm so fortunate to connect with hundreds of traders.

28:47I get to speak with so many from different backgrounds, different experiences. And one thing that I do find about having this unlimited access to information and the ability to hop in and out of communities is you get a lot of people that start comparing their journey to somebody else. It may be their friend. It may be some random guru that they're following online. You don't know if the information that they're even comparing themselves to is real. But that idea of constantly comparing themselves, they don't use it in a motivational way.

29:21They actually use it to limit themselves and they think, why am I not where they are? Yeah. How do you find that balance between having that community or accountability partner but using it in a good way rather than actually having it work against you? It's impossible to have that level of awareness without making the mistakes in the beginning. You will compare yourself and you will think that what you're trading is not the best way. You will think that there is a 100% win rate strategy.

29:48You will think that this mentor is actually a seven figureure mentor. You will think a lot of things in the beginning. But the more skin you have in the game and if you are truly accountable to your actions and you're not blind, you will discover a lot of things throughout the way that will change your perspective and will make you uh very aware of those things. If you compare yourself exactly my let's say my approach I was always questioning my strategy and questioning my risk-to-reward.

30:18I was like, "Damn, this guy is a sevenf figureure trader and he uses intuition. He uses discretion. Can I can I do that? I think my system is not the best. Like, it's only making me five to six hours." And I I I literally tried everything going from the footprint chart, um TPO chart, volume profile, supply and demand, every literally every strategy you can. And just going back to the point that you said in the beginning, some people the strategy that I'm trading, they cannot trade it because they don't have the right personality.

31:03And I think it's the same thing for me. When I tried to compare myself, I found that my personality is I'm I'm doing way better when I'm trading a lower risk towards system because it's my personality, you know? I like something that is sure. I like something that is consistent. I rather go for something that is certain and making me let's say six figures. That's something that is uncertain but making me nine.

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32:49Interesting, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So that that that kind of sustainability and that that sustainability is very important and being able to do it over and over again is so important because also just for a personal aspect. I had a lot of pressure cuz I'm I'm very young. I had a lot of pressure to make it in school. you know, when you have uh you know, the parents that are are behind your back and are like, "Hey, you need to be either become a doctor or an engineer and um then you go to them and you're like, hey, mom, I want to become a trader."

33:26Yeah. And they're like, "What the hell are you talking about? Uh making money online is impossible." Yeah. Um, and you kind of have that pressure on your shoulders to do something and do it right, you know, do it in the right way and not um not do it in a unprofessional way, you know, and that kind of pressure that I had to make it in school, let's say, made me take the right approach within the within my trading. I went immediately on the statistical uh side of trading and uh you know made sure that what I was doing was replicable you know instead of you know maybe one day I'll make seven figures in that trade or six figures in that trade.

34:16I can't I couldn't do that because I I knew people behind me were were waiting for something you know something in return or some sort of results. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of the results aspect of this game, there is something that I really want to pick your brain on and I think you're probably the perfect person for it because you're someone that's clearly done really well in the prop space. And I know a lot of people that come into this game and really struggle to find their edge with the rules, the regulations, passing the evaluations, all these different aspects of, you know, maybe even managing accounts.

34:49talk me through your process in

34:55terms of what you think it takes to be successful in the prop space, right? And I think specifically like getting past the evaluation stage and maybe specifically like how you manage your risk and your trading from evaluation to funded because I think this is something that a lot of people get stuck with. That's a very very good question. I don't take the evaluations as seriously as my funded, okay? Because there is something called the opportunity cost. If you're not trading a funded account and you're not on the route to get your first payout or get get a payout, then you're potentially missing out not on the fee that you paid for the EVO, but on what you could have made from the payout, okay, if you were trading a funded.

35:37So, I'm being way more aggressive on the EVAL stage knowing that my return on investment is so much higher. Okay. Let's say I buy an account for $97 from Tradeify and it's a one day to pass. Mhm. I will try to enter with a lot of leverage because I know that I can get a $1,500 payout from it, which is a 167x return. Even if I blow it twice, it's all good.

36:07It's going to be 15 because I know I can convert that into a payout. Yeah. But I'm running out of time. If I'm in a winning streak, but I was trading that, you know, that account. So, um, you know, with a lot of patience and with a light risk, then I would have potentially missed out on 1,500. That's how I see it. So, the opportunity cost and that's a good point that you talked about with the the way that I manage my trades overall.

36:31I have a certain approach that not a lot of people have which is splitting my risk into multiple accounts. Okay. So what I'm doing is I have two strategies. I have two strategies that are onetoone risk towards and they have different frameworks but you know same risk toward and I think playing it that way is always better for your psychology because when one of your strategies is in a break even draw down streak most likely the other one will be in a winning streak.

37:09Okay. So what I do is that let's say I have five accounts I will split by three and two okay and I will try to pass the evaluations pretty fast with aggressive risk and once I'm funded I have two strategies first strategy being uh let's say my most performing strategy which is going to be the one that I will copy trade with the three accounts and the other one will be two so if I'm entering in the market and it's let's say 10:15 I'm taking a trade unfilled gap and it's losing.

37:42Okay, I lost on my first set of accounts, but I know that I have a pretty big likelihood of winning the next one. And by the end of the month, if I'm break even on a set of accounts, I can still pay myself out on the other set. So, that's kind of a way that I um kind of hedge myself with two different strategies that are that have the same risk toward but are different approach. And that gave me such a peace of mind because we always have when when you want to be a you know a successful trader especially within the prop firm space it's hard because you're you're always comparing yourself to the results that you're seeing on Twitter on Instagram and you're seeing those guys that you know maybe you're that are your friends and they're showing four, five, six figure payouts and you're there in a break even streak within your accounts and you're like, I'm doing something wrong.

38:39And then you want to switch your strategy and do those all those uh unproductive things. But if you have that approach of splitting your accounts and accept the fact that you're you're going to make less, okay, you're going to make less, but it's certain almost certain that you're going to make this amount. I rather make less but be certain than make more. And it's uncertain. So if I copy trade all five of my accounts together, I may be in a draw down streak.

39:08I may be in a break even streak and I know it's normal. But with for that comparison aspect and for you know safety and peace of mind, making sure that I get paid out every single month is doing that approach is the best thing. So you prioritize a lot more consistency in your approach rather than kind of swinging for the fences and then having these huge kind of roller coaster. Absolutely. I rather make $6,000 per month consistently just by trading, copy trading, let's say a set of three accounts and by 3x3 or 3x two.

39:47Yeah. Then making 20,000 a month and losing 10,000 activation fee the other month, you know. Interesting. Interesting. So, even if the net P&L could be the same over like a 12-month period, you've got one approach where you're taking your consistent approach versus the other one that kind of has these big huge moments where they pay off, but then have some moments where there's nothing. Even if the P&L was the same, you prefer the consistent approach. 100%. Nice. 100%. I like that.

40:15And do you have a preference over like what do you look for in terms of the account specifically? because I know there are we have we're spoiled for choice here with a lot of prop firms uh different account types, different rules. Are there specific things that you're looking for that make certain conditions or challenges like good for how you approach this? 100%. So the accounts with no consistency rules in the funded stage are not the best things for me because my approach is such a you know onetoone risk toward you're in and out and you're not swinging for the fences.

40:52So those accounts are are giving me the urge of gambling a little bit more than uh the others. The accounts that I like the most are the straight to funded accounts. A called lightning accounts. Okay. And there are the accounts where as soon as you pay, you're immediately on the road to get your first payout. And why do I like them so much? It's because of the opportunity cost that we talked about earlier.

41:13If I'm trading a an eval uh very passively and it takes me two months to pass it, because it's still hard to pass an EVA, of course, it's it's not easy. It's if you trade it uh without heavy risk, it's going to take you one month, you know. So it that the kind of opportunity cost I don't have to worry about it when I'm trading straight to funded accounts. They have a consistency rule of 20% during the funded stage. Okay. Okay. Which means that my biggest trade cannot be greater than 20% of the profit target.

41:42They require me to uh request a payout. So what do I do? I have since I've been trading for three years now, three years and a half. Um I have higher expectations. I want to make a little bit more. So I go for 150k accounts. So higher accounts uh that can make way more money than the 50s. But um I split them and I trade my two different strategies. And I would say there's even if there's 20% of consistency, I find such a peace of mind of trading the base hits leaving and I know I cannot even make more.

42:24Yeah. If I make more, I'm past that consistency rule. And I think it's something that is very good if you have a hard time with your psychology and a hard time with overtrading or oversizing. It will keep you grounded, especially those 150ks. If you hit your daily loss limit on that, you're not going to be too happy with it. So, take one trade a day. One to one restore exactly like my approach and I walk away. That's that's my approach. Very very interesting. There's there's so much to what you said there that again is it's very logical, but there's there's a perspective that you have that I think there's a lot of again if you look at the landscape of retail traders, there's a lot of people that will just see consistency rules as as a hindrance.

43:09They see it as a limitation. Whereas the way that you describe it is it's actually a benefit, right? It curbs that need to want to swing for the fences and you can just focus on onetoone the base hits, the things that keep the payouts consistent over time. And I think that's clearly an approach that seems to be working well for you. There is um something that I saw you actually tweeted recently and I thought this was a really interesting take and it's something that I want to run by you and

43:40and hear your actual opinion on it. You mentioned recently that trading full-time is overrated. And I think this is an interesting point of discussion because I know for a fact there's going to be thousands of people that are watching this that have the ambition, the dream, and the goal to give up their job and to only trade full-time, to have 100% of their income coming only from the markets. And they believe that that is going to keep them fulfilled.

44:06They believe they're going to be happy in doing that. from someone that's in a place where you can actually live that life. Why do you think it's overrated? It's overrated because there's a lot of risk involved with trading and you don't know how your next month will be will go. You don't know how your quarter will go. Wins and losses are completely randomly distributed. No matter how good your strategy is, you're you don't know what's going to happen in the next 30 trading days.

44:38It's impossible. And knowing this, you're just applying too much pressure on you to succeed or to put food on the table if you're trading full-time. It's you have such a peace of mind when you have steady income. And you you will trade better because you don't have those expectations and you will not be tempted to let's say you're on a losing month. will not be tempted to make your money back as soon as possible, which would be something that you're most likely going to be inclined.

45:12Um, and you you will want to do it if you trade full-time, you know, and I I just like the peace of mind. I just I'm just a guy who's, you know, calm, collected, and I even though I'm trading, which is, you know, in a sense it's risky, if you do it in the right approach, it's not. Yeah. But I hate being stressed. I hate being stressed and I'm not putting all these efforts and to live a mediocre life and to live a life that you know is really stressful and you know my let's say that if if you're stressed all the time is it really worth it to be trading?

45:59I don't think so. What what about trading do you think for most people makes it super stressful? The expectations and the fact that if we're talking about, you know, doing it full-time, putting food on the table with trading money, it's it's more like a you're hunting for uh you're hunting the market basically. It's like if you hunt, you you're going to eat. Like if you if it's a good hunt, you're going to eat. If not, then you're not going to eat, you know.

46:34And in those dry months, then this is when you tend to go crazy and, you know, um so I would say um I'll say just overall going for that consistent approach is is less stressful and just gives me a piece of mind that I wouldn't I wouldn't change for anything. Hey guys, the biggest prop firm expo we've seen so far is going down on June 27th in London. And trust me, this is not something you want to miss.

47:01Prop firm Trader is going to be there hosting live podcasts on stage with some of the best prop firm traders in the space. As always, we're not just going to be talking results. We're going to understand how they think, how they trade, and how they actually stay consistent. You're also going to see live sessions from chart fanatics, plus an opportunity to meet some of your favorite prop firms.

47:20There are going to be giveaways and opportunities to win prizes throughout the day. We're going to have our own booth there alongside Words of Wisdom, Chart Fanatics, and Chart Academy. So, make sure you come down and meet the team. We're going to be giving away free accounts and merchandise throughout the entire day. It's all happening on June 27th in London.

47:38All the links you need are in the description below. And if you're planning to grab a ticket, make sure you use code PFT to make the biggest savings. I'll see you there. One thing that I think is is worth touching on here with the context of stress is managing multiple

47:56accounts. Yeah. Right. Because you've talked about your you've given your insight into your trade management approach and how you split that across multiple different accounts. I think one of the things that a lot of people will struggle with is, especially inside of the prop space, your ability to scale up your account size can often happen so much quicker than your ability to manage that level of capital. You've obviously said you're trading accounts that are quite large in size, but I presume you didn't always start that way.

48:23H how do you go from somebody that's starting with a relatively small amount to getting comfortable risking larger amounts of money and and not having stress kind of kill you off in that process? You got to have a buffer. You need to have money on the side that will and enough money on the side for you to start taking more risks and start investing more into the business model. I've seen so many close friends of mine making their first 50, 60K and blowing it all the way back to zero within 3 months trying to scale to 40 accounts, 30 accounts.

49:06And the scaling part is really where psychology will affect you. M I have that mindset of if you have a hard time being disciplined and following your rules, you're not even in the game. Mhm. That's first. You have to be disciplined. You have to uh you know, follow your rules or what are you doing? You know, I I kind of have like no tolerance regarding discipline or just overall taking your setups and walking away. But the psychology will actually hit you when you start to scale and you will lose money that you're not necessarily comfortable losing.

49:39When you get in a trade and you know there's 10 accounts on the line and let's say you're copy trading 20 accounts and there there's 10 accounts on the line. It's most likely even if the setup is valid your heart your your heart will pump you know and it will be stressful a little bit more stressful than if you were copy trading five or four you know so your decision- making is going to be screwed if you're not ready for that so slow is pro I always say this slow is pro slow and steady wins the race you need to have a buffer once you make your first 30k then invest into more accounts Once you have consistency and the hard proof behind why you should scale, scale.

50:23Before that, it's an unnecessary gamble. You never want to go back to square one. That's the thing. It's like especially if you start and you have 5k in your account, let's say in your in your bank account, why are you going to risk that 5k to go back to zero when you you have that small cushion where you know even if things go wrong, you can make an extra 5k with two accounts. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like going back to square zero will will kill you if you if it happens too often.

50:54The more you trade, if you've been trading for three years, you don't have the same tolerance for [ __ ] as someone who just started. Yeah. Because you're gonna prove to yourself over and over again that you can't do it. Yeah. Literally. So, at a certain point, you're kind of disappointed in yourself, not necessarily in the business model. You're disappointed in yourself and you're you're starting to be like, damn, can I truly make this happen instead of just being focused? But I think

51:27it's such a good thing that you brought it up because a having a business plan is as important as having a strategy. You know, a business plan meaning that you know how much you spend every month. You know how much you're most likely going to make with your strategy. So knowing the KPIs of your system, you need to have an approach where okay, let's say for me my business plan is I'm trading 550k accounts straight to funded accounts.

51:52I split them between two strategies. I can't spend more than this every month because if I spend more than this, I will be uncomfortable and I will be emotionally attached too emotionally attached to those accounts and to the initial investment that I put in. and yeah and I will live uh a stressful quarter, a stressful month and I don't want this, you know. So having that business plan is really important because you can blow through so much money too fast if uh you don't set limits.

52:23This this business model can quickly turn into gambling if you don't have the right approach and even if you have an edge. Yeah, the edge is in props. Since there's rules, hard rules sometimes to um that you need to apply in order to request payouts. You need to be sharp with your business approach. It's a business. Sometimes, I always say this, sometimes exactly like in a real business, a restaurant or let's say you sell you sell stuff for um for for couples, you're you're most likely going to make more in Valentine's Day.

52:54You're most likely going to make more during the holidays or Mother's Day. Yeah. But the rest of the quarters sometimes will be dry. You will not make that much money. It's the same thing for trading. Sometimes you you'll have great quarters. You'll have great years. Sometimes it will be, you know, in the middle. But if you have that business approach and you have that business mindset, I treat it as a business.

53:28Sometimes it will be dry. Sometimes I will make a lot. you don't have those unrealistic expectations that will drive you crazy. Yeah, I think that's so very true of a lot of traders. I I've always said I see trading as like a two-stage game. Stage one is you have to learn how to make money.

53:45It's the one that everyone focuses on, but stage two is you have to learn how to keep money. Yeah. And it's the one that not many people focus on. And I think a lot of why they give it away is exactly what you described there, which is people are just chasing the next level and trying to kind of rush that process. They don't focus on that idea of like slow and they end up just giving it back and there's no point making,000 5,000 10,000 100,000 if you don't actually have an ability to keep it over time.

54:10And so really important lesson that you shared there and I like the way you frame it in regards to really treating trading like a business and having that plan and expectations of how you expect a given month to go much like you would have with any business. One thing that I get

54:29from speaking to you more and more is I tend to find that you're three and I think you said three and a half years into this game. Yeah. You seem to have a very high level of awareness not just of yourself but of the landscape of you know prop firm game uh treating trading in the right way like a business.

54:47Is that something that you feel like you naturally had coming into the space or something that you've learned through a little bit of trial and error? Like where did that come for you? both um in my education I'd say my parents always taught me to be very accountable to my actions and to not be delusional in a sense where I'm blind you know if I did something wrong it's my fault most likely okay always and this a little bit part of my education and also um I would say having siblings having older siblings being the youngest in the family taught me a lot about um you trial and error and seeing what, you know, I should do, should seeing what I shouldn't do.

55:30Uh, so I got I think I had that maturity growing up of always, uh, being around older people. Um, so I'd say a little bit of both, but that accountability or, you know, that awareness within the game, you will learn it and you will have to go through those errors in order to actually be aware. It's like, let's say you just started and you're looking on Twitter and everyone is just posting winners or Instagram. You have to understand that social media is a place where people post their highlights.

56:06No one's going to post a picture of them with their tongue, like, let's say, their tongue out and they're going to look like they're not going to look good on the picture on Instagram. Like, they're going to make sure they have the best angle. they're going to make sure they look perfect or maybe photoshop the the the picture a little bit so it make it seem like they're always happy or you know and it's the same thing. You will see people that are going to be showing huge payouts, six figure payouts, seven figure payouts, but you have to understand, you can't really compare yourself to those people because sometimes they have a chance that you don't have.

56:45Mhm. Some maybe they're making a lot more money doing another thing. Um, and they have a lot of money to pull in those those firms and they have a an approach that you can't replicate. And understanding this changed my p my perspective on a lot of things. I stopped comparing myself because I knew that some even if some people were at a certain stage that I wanted potentially to to be in the future, one day will be my time.

57:14And um even if you know those people that say I don't know how much they spent uh in those in those uh the proper fees or um I I don't know what's you know the downside of their strategies. I always try to to be realistic and always try to go my own way with my people and not look to the left, not look to the right. you know, I know how hard the game is.

57:46And being aware of that is um is going to do you very well in terms of expectations. And I think I have that you I grew up with this and I also learned it the hard way with social media and um you know, trial and error. Yeah, there's there's a lot of I think negative opinions

58:08about maybe influencers, gurus, people that sell mentorships, even just people that are affiliated with a firm, right? You can be affiliated with the wrong or right firm and it does weird things for your reputation depending on the person online. That's obviously something you have a little bit of experience with. Like what do you think it's it's like as someone in your position that has a following uh that is affiliated with a firm? Do you think that people in your position have to kind of conduct themselves in the right way in terms of whether it's you know transparency or voicing the right message to ensure that people that are maybe not have those connections or affiliations are seeing the right message?

58:48I always compare trading to professional sports. And let's say you're one of the best basketball players in the world. People will have that debate of if you're so profitable trading, if you're such a profitable trader, why are you selling things on the side? Yeah. Okay. If you're one of the best professional sports player, let's say basketball player, let's say you're LeBron James. He's making a [ __ ] ton of money with his contract. Yeah. But do you see him doing other stuff on the side?

59:25Yes. Why? Because if he's pulling in money on the side um and he's going to be he's going to have that mental piece, you know, of not needing that money of that contract to live, then he's going to be a better basketball player. Even know same thing for traders. If you have a steady income and you know you don't need necessarily to rely on that trading money to survive which is the important part to survive then you are going to become such a better trader but on the other side I don't agree with teaching without proof you know and it's something I think is not talked enough within the space I see a lot of people uh you know mentoring or giving advice without showing any proof of concept, proof of payouts, proof of journaling, proof of consistency.

1:00:28And that also comes back to the subject that we talked about accountability. Yeah, you need to understand that as someone who wants to educate or show his approach on social media, your greatest form of marketing is your results. And if you're not showing this and you're following someone who doesn't show results, then it's on you. Like, how dumb can you be to follow someone just because he claims that he's profitable? And the biggest guys um you know I I say yeah there's a lot of things that we can talk on with this uh I don't I don't want I I hate to talk about this subject you know because I hate comparing myself and I hate to I just hate overall just hating you know but I think you know in terms of marketing it's your greatest form of marketing if you don't show any payouts proof of concept you shouldn't be teaching or not just don't hate the guy, just go on your way and focus on trading, you know, don't uh don't be a hater and maybe some people actually don't deserve a platform, but don't waste your time um [ __ ] posting on

1:01:43Twitter. Just go on your way and and and um and find your way basically. So may maybe the the

1:01:49other or more productive perspective in the way to look at this is for the person that's watching this that's maybe still trying to find their path to profitability and they're looking for a course, a mentorship, a community of some sort where they can learn their edge or you know develop their knowledge and skill set in some way.

1:02:07You've mentioned obviously if you want if somebody wants to go down that route they have to have some sort of proof of concept. They have to be able to show that they can do what they claim they can do. For somebody that's looking for that, what is enough proof? Like, are we I I presume we're not talking about just, you know, a single payout certificate. Like, how much becomes enough credibility to say, you know what, maybe this person has some substance and worth following.

1:02:31I think it's more about showing being transparent with the journey, showing wins and losses, showing draw down streaks, break even streaks, losing streaks, you blowing your account and then uh you know coming back on top. I think there's a big lack of transparency and you as a as someone who wants to find a mentor, you need to go for someone who's transparent rather than someone who just shows big profits in the Lamborghini. Yeah. you know, and um what is enough proof?

1:03:01That's a very good question. I'll say some people might disagree, but six figures in payouts within the proper space tells me that you know something about the game. Okay? No matter if you're gamifying those firms or if you know, whatever you're doing, you know something, right? And you you as a beginner it's hard and most likely you will not find the right mentor on the first try but there is very legit people out there and I think it would be very very dumb to say that um you know mentors are not profitable or the business model as a whole is a scam.

1:03:53It's you're you're also one thing is a lot of new traders will go on YouTube, look at a certain person's strategy and think that as soon as they're going to replicate that strategy, they're going to be profitable. You need to know that what makes someone profitable is not his ability to win in trades. It's his his ability to stay out of the market and to not take those unnecessary losses. And you only gain that or you only become skilled in that sense with repetition with thousands of trades backlisted in a folder.

1:04:35And I think yes there is good educators, there is very bad educators, but you need to verify the information that was thrown to you 100%. Even if even if the guy is bad potentially, he could still benefit you from a certain detail that he traded, you know. So, let's say my strategy, I took bits and pieces of multiple different mentors, you know, and do I know if they're legit or not? Do I know how much they spent in those accounts? No, I don't.

1:05:12I will never know. And I do I trust them. There's there's a part of me that don't truly and I will never know. But I don't care because I found my own strategy based on bits and pieces of a lot of concepts. Yeah. Instead of hating, I went on my own route and found my own strategy. And it's also a good thing to talk about this is, you know, even though I tell you my four or five best strategies right now and I tell you you need to enter right here, right now at this exact moment, with this timing, with this below you, the likelihood of you being able to replicate those results is going to be very hard without skin in the game, without years of back testing, without adaptation, without the right business structure.

1:05:57So there's a lot of things that can make you unprofitable even with let's say a good mentor. So you also need to be aware of that of the skill level you need to have and the amount of work you need to put in behind the scenes. Yeah. It's like it's it's hard. It's but it's doable. I think one of the biggest misconceptions that a lot of traders have about this idea is that I think so many people think strategy is everything. Right? If I just figured out what this person is doing that's been able to achieve this result, I will be able to do the same thing.

1:06:28And as you've obviously correctly pointed out there, there are a number of factors and variables that are all to do with the person and actually nothing to do with the market that can have a huge influence over maybe how consistent you'll be and applying that strategy or just the results that you'll be able to return off the back of that. Yeah, I guess the question

1:06:56that I have for you is have you found that there are any disciplines, habits and routines that are good specifically for the person outside of the technical, the strategic approach? Is there anything that would be beneficial for the person to allow them to be either more clear-headed or a little bit more consistent with their behavior to be able to execute a strategy for example? That's a an amazing question because we can go multiple ways with it. And I think showing to yourself that you're disciplined outside of the chart is very important.

1:07:24I truly believe that how you do something is how you do everything. If you're not healthy, if you don't have if you don't go to the gym, if you um are not disciplined outside of the chart, it will be very hard for you to to be disciplined in the chart. And another thing, always think positively. You are what you think about all the time. I love it. And it's a little bit more, you know, um, in a different direction, but I try to always view stuff in the positive way.

1:07:54No matter what, no matter if I'm blowing accounts, no matter if, you know, I'm in a terrible losing streak, I'm in a terrible headsp space, there's always something to learn from the situation. And if you want to stay in the game for long enough, then you can't be negative at all cost. You are what you think about. If you're negative, you're only going to attract negative things into your life. And I'm big into that, you know, that energy and and big into, you know, um always being positive and always thinking that there is something better is going to happen.

1:08:31I love that. Honestly, beautiful way, I think, to start to wind things down. Um, I have a couple of things that I would love to do before we end this episode. Yeah, I have a couple of traditions. You may be familiar with some of them. One of them very simple few uh quickfire questions that I want to throw you away. The second one I call confessions of a trader and uh I have one a little confession that's written up for you.

1:09:02Uh I'll run by you, but we'll start with the quickfire questions. Okay. Um so just a few to run by you honest and uh open thoughts on this. What do you think is the biggest mistake that destroys most prop traders? Biggest mistake is strategy hopping. Nice. What is one sign that you should not be trading that day? Bank holiday. Interesting. Interesting. Um, are there any beliefs that you had about trading that you changed your mind on? Yeah, that's a good one.

1:09:36that it was possible to be profitable with a negative risk toward. Interesting. I like that. Um, I don't know how big you are on this, but do you have like a top three book recommendations? I don't I don't really uh read trading books a lot, but I read other books. Atomic Habits. Nice. showing you that trying to get 1% better every single day is how you change your life rather than you know trying to change um everything all at once. Let's say psychology of money showing you the importance of not trying to look rich but to be smart with your money and play your cards right.

1:10:28And the last one would be, and I'm more of a podcast guy. Fair. So, all of RZ's podcast. I I told him I was like, I'm I'm a huge fan. Like, I've been watching those, you know, and what I was doing was I had two screens. One of them was on my left screen and the other one I was back this thing and I was listening in the background and just, you know, ripping it. I love that, man.

1:10:55Okay. So, last part of today, we call this uh confessions of a trader. So, I take an accumulation of conversations, experiences, sometimes it's going to be audience submitted confessions. Um, I build them up into something that I think is going to be fitting for our guest. I want you to consider this like a trader is confessing something to you about their journey, about an experience that they've had. And I want your honest thoughts, your take, your advice, uh, of what you would say to that person.

1:11:24Okay, so today's confession of a trader is I'm amazing at analyzing the markets and I can often spot moves which capture a 1 to5 risk-to-reward. The only thing that I haven't been able to overcome is watching trades U-turn and stop me out at break even, sometimes being up after multiple R on a trade. It sends me on tilt and I always do stupid [ __ ] How can I get better at dealing with those moments? size down so that floating profit is not something that you can't manage.

1:11:59And I would say trim your stop loss either to break even or trim your stop- loss and profit. So you know that if if you give up on so much money, it's not it's not better. Let's say if you're in a 1 to4 and your full TP was 1 to5, then you're currently in a huge negative risk toward currently if you let that go all the way back to your stop loss or break even. So, put your stop loss into profits if you know it's going to trigger you if you lose that trade.

1:12:28Solid. I love that. Beautiful. All right, I think uh we will wrap things up for today. Um I want to say a massive, massive thank you. It's been genuinely a pleasure speaking to you today. I feel like for your age, for your experience, you have so much wisdom about yourself, the trading space, the landscape of everything that we're doing here.

1:12:48And I think for the people watching they would have got a lot from this conversation. So massive thank you for me so much. A huge pleasure man. Me too. Guys and girls that is a wrap for today. As always I want to know in the comments below. What was your biggest takeaway from today's episode? Was there something that Amas was sharing today that transformed your way of thinking?

1:13:10Changed your perspective? Gave you a different way to start looking at things? If there was, let us know in the comments. We would love to hear it. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you give it a thumbs up. Make sure you subscribe to the channel for more episodes just like this. And have a look on the screen. There's probably more episodes with endless wisdom in there for you to check out as well. I'll see you guys in the next one. Take care.

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